Calomel.org

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
110 messages Options
1234 ... 6
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Calomel.org

Shaka NKofo
I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.

All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
like DNS and pf?

I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
since the devices are just adding up too fast...

Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on
this matter.

Thanks

Shaka

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

STeve Andre'
On 07/26/12 00:55, Shaka NKofo wrote:

> I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
> simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
> installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
> basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.
>
> All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
> found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
> like DNS and pf?
>
> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
> my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
> since the devices are just adding up too fast...
>
> Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on
> this matter.
>
> Thanks
>
> Shaka
>
>
No.

Read all of openbsd.org.  It won't take that long, and is a great learning
tool.  The FAQ is part of that--you'll learn a lot.

Use marc.info to look for specific stuff.  You'll find lots of stuff,
conversations on things.

--STeve Andre'

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

David Diggles-2
In reply to this post by Shaka NKofo
Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd,
especially the sysctl tuning stuff.

Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and
read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques.

Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote:

> I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
> simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
> installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
> basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.
>
> All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
> found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
> like DNS and pf?
>
> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
> my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
> since the devices are just adding up too fast...
>
> Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on
> this matter.
>
> Thanks
>
> Shaka

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

bernd-34
In reply to this post by Shaka NKofo
On 07/26/2012 06:55 AM, thus Shaka NKofo spake:

> I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
> simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
> installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
> basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.
>
> All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
> found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
> like DNS and pf?
>
> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
> my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
> since the devices are just adding up too fast...
>
> Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on
> this matter.
>
> Thanks
>
> Shaka

*fetching popcorn

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Spixx
Okay I feel that a flame war might be afoot but to put another log on the
fire; is Calomel not trustworthy in the "read and do alike not copying
straight from" kind of way? I have used the guides for instance about the
PF and DNS. And that server has now been working fine for ages (2 years
;)).

Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not
change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either?

Regards Joakim

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Bernd <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/26/2012 06:55 AM, thus Shaka NKofo spake:
>
>  I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
>> simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
>> installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
>> basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.
>>
>> All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
>> found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
>> like DNS and pf?
>>
>> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
>> my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
>> since the devices are just adding up too fast...
>>
>> Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on
>> this matter.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Shaka
>>
>
> *fetching popcorn

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Rod Whitworth-3
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:47:46 +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote:

>Okay I feel that a flame war might be afoot but to put another log on the
>fire; is Calomel not trustworthy in the "read and do alike not copying
>straight from" kind of way? I have used the guides for instance about the
>PF and DNS. And that server has now been working fine for ages (2 years
>;)).

Just lucky, I guess.
>
>Perhaps a resource of howtos/FAQ can be created since OpenBSD does not
>change to much between releases? Or is that not interesting either?
>

Howtos? That way lies madness. External recipes are not likely to be
up-to-date or free of stupidity in the first place.

The supplied docs (man and FAQ(on www.openbsd.org)) are sufficient for
all base utilities etc.

Packages come with varying quality docs but often there are hints in
the package for OpenBSD variations. Apart from that the application's
web pages are usually reasonable and the ones that have fora are
generally helpful.

Third-party docs are rarely gems.

R/

*** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I <am> subscribed to the list.
Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou.

Rod/
---
This life is not the real thing.
It is not even in Beta.
If it was, then OpenBSD would already have a man page for it.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Jan Stary
In reply to this post by Shaka NKofo
On Jul 26 06:55:54, Shaka NKofo wrote:
> I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
> simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
> installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
> basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.
>
> All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
> found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
> like DNS and pf?

No.

> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it

Good. Start from www.openbsd.org/faq and continue to the manpages.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Gilles Chehade-7
In reply to this post by Shaka NKofo
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote:
>
> [blabla]
>

*facepalm*

--
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Spixx
To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example
configs of more obscure things :).

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote:
> >
> > [blabla]
> >
>
> *facepalm*
>
> --
> Gilles Chehade
>
> https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

David Diggles-2
In reply to this post by Gilles Chehade-7
The calomel phenomenon is fascinating!

I was calomeled.

Those who have been calomeled have done the following:

1. lazily google: "openbsd tuning" (or similar)
2. click on: "Network Tuning and Performance Guide (OpenBSD) - Calomel"
   (currently ranked 2 on google)
3. lazy and in a hurry to get "it" working, apply stuff from calomel
4. lazily email misc without first searching marc.info, referring
   to the calomel recipe and asking further questions

While calomel has the high rank in google, this keeps repeating.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Gilles Chehade-7
In reply to this post by Spixx
Did I just read, that ?

"To my defense, I read nicely written FAQ and MAN first, then I
 used broken and wrong documentation for broken examples of more
 obscure things"


On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:26:03AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote:

> To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example
> configs of more obscure things :).
>
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote:
> > >
> > > [blabla]
> > >
> >
> > *facepalm*
> >
> > --
> > Gilles Chehade
> >
> > https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg
>

--
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Peter Laufenberg
In reply to this post by David Diggles-2
>Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd,
>especially the sysctl tuning stuff.
>
>Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and
>read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques.
>
>Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org.

Here's a better idea I'm putting out there to see how fast it gets shot down: openbsd-wiki.org, with a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting and legitimate users would get answers faster and silently, in whatever available languages.

Dynamic content & proper search would also put an end to "just wade through marc.info" fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to "egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man", say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4" and 8" media.

The site can look butt-ugly (or wikimedia-bland) but needs a semi-official stamp of approval instead of blinking red THIS IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH OPENBSD.ORG!!! And if linking to a 3rd-party web site was such a taboo you wouldn't use Google site-search.

Let the shooting down begin. Truth is misc subscribers secretly love reading the same Q&As over and again, with the monthly calomel snicker, right?

-- p

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Gilles Chehade-7
In reply to this post by Gilles Chehade-7
Sorry Joakim, I'll bring this one back to the list.


On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:45:17AM +0200, Joakim Dellrud wrote:
> Yeah if you are going to complain about what sources I use please do so off
> list since that behaviour is not called for nor informative. Perhaps you
> should read this resource on how to respond and post in the list
> http://www.openbsd.org/mail.html.
>

Let it be clear:

I don't care what you use as a source of information, every one is free to
shoot himself on the foot.

But if you start mentionning calomel as a source of information, I feel an
urge to clarify that your source of information is broken. I have received
mails about *every week* asking why something I wrote was broken when that
was just an outdated broken calomel example. That broken example still has
it wrong and still drags mail to my mailbox.

When you encourage others to follow that same broken source as you, I will
not take it private because you're publically dumbing people.


> And also a comment on calomel; yes I use it but I'm not stupid enough to
> either copy straight from it OR use the sysctl... The only guides I have
> used for reference is https://calomel.org/pf_carp.html where I needed some
> information other then what was said on the site since I was going for a 4
> server active cluster.
>

Glad for you, the 100 % of people that mailed me with broken examples seem
to have copied straight from it. Are they idiots ? No, some people thought
it was a correct source of information because people mentionned it and no
one clarified that it was a pile of junk.


> If you have a problem with calomel either make sure it does not surface in
> every search (above openbsd FAQ I might add).
>

Sadly I'm not root on Google (yet ? ;p) and Internet is not a source of
clean information, which is why some things need to be clarified to
also surface in searches ;-)


> Just my 2 cents off list.
>

cheers,


--
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Eric Furman-3
In reply to this post by Shaka NKofo
This has to be a joke or a troll or something.
I'm not biting.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Shaka NKofo wrote:

> I'm new to Open BSD but no stranger to *nix OSs. My question here is
> simple. I have been reading the man pages and documentation and have
> installed and setup a 5.1 box on my lan. Now after understanding its
> basic inner workings I wish to put it to heavy and good use.
>
> All I'm asking is that is it advisable to use some of the tutorials
> found on https://calomel.org/ as a sort of map to setup basic services
> like DNS and pf?
>
> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
> my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
> since the devices are just adding up too fast...
>
> Please I would appreciate your individual approaches and viewpoints on
> this matter.
>
> Thanks
>
> Shaka

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Scott McEachern-2
In reply to this post by Peter Laufenberg
On 07/26/12 03:53, Peter Laufenberg wrote:
>> Apparently calomel is full of bad and/or outdated advice for openbsd,
>> especially the sysctl tuning stuff.
>>
>> Your best advice is to follow the official FAQ's on openbsd.org, and
>> read openbsd man pages to learn your techniques.
>>
>> Maybe there needs to be a calomel faq on openbsd.org.
> a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting

That'll happen right after I'm done cleaning up the unicorn shit from my
back yard.

You're not the first person to mention a wiki for OpenBSD, and look how
well that turned out.

--
Scott McEachern

https://www.blackstaff.ca

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Christiano F. Haesbaert
In reply to this post by Eric Furman-3
I feel this usually comes from folks with Linux background.

You see, in BSD world, specially in OpenBSD, there is good and high
quality documentation, which the developers put a lot of effort in
providing it.
I know, since I did it too in the past, that when you're using Linux,
you're basically in the dark, so you go to google, and you try your
luck.

Everytime you follow a non official documentation, you waste your time
and the developer's time, we're not cranky about "calomel" only, we're
cranky about people following unofficial documentation, remember, our
FAQ and manpages are accurate 99.99% of the time and they are pretty
well written and complete.

If you can't figure it out by reading the FAQ/manpages: you're either
not ready for it, or we have a documentation bug.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Wojciech Puchar-5
> I know, since I did it too in the past, that when you're using Linux,
> you're basically in the dark, so you go to google, and you try your
> luck.
when i was still using linux it was "this manual is out of date, use
texinfo". texinfo was out of date too, but wikipedia style documentation
was considered great.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Paulm-7
In reply to this post by Peter Laufenberg
> Here's a better idea I'm putting out there to see how fast it gets shot down: openbsd-wiki.org, with a rule that whoever gets a question answered on misc has to add an entry with the cleaned reply. It'd do wonders for misc's signal/noise because lazy fucks, retards and trolls would think twice before posting and legitimate users would get answers faster and silently, in whatever available languages.

How is that going to stop the 'retards and trolls' from posting?  
What are the consequences for people who break the rule, and who is
going to enforce it? Have you really thought this through?

> Dynamic content & proper search would also put an end to "just wade through marc.info" fuck-offs and self-righteous RTFD when one has to "egrep -Rli serial /usr/share/man", say. Man/info pages are the ultimate /reference/, they're not meant to solve high-level problems. The FAQs are really are no FAQs at all but a gigantic snowball with floppy install instructions crucially leaving out 5 1/4" and 8" media.

I don't understand why the floppy install option gets you so riled up.
I happen to have a couple of IBM Thinkpads from the early 2000's,
which still work quite well with the exception of unreliable cdrom
drives.  So I like knowing the floppy option is there.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Wojciech Puchar-5
In reply to this post by Spixx
I first read the documentation, the do everything properly and after that
i f..k it all up because some trendy webpages says i should.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012, Joakim Dellrud wrote:

> To my defense I use the FAQ and MAN first then I used Calomel for example
> configs of more obscure things :).
>
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Gilles Chehade <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:55:54AM +0200, Shaka NKofo wrote:
>>>
>>> [blabla]
>>>
>>
>> *facepalm*
>>
>> --
>> Gilles Chehade
>>
>> https://www.poolp.org                                          @poolpOrg

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Calomel.org

Wojciech Puchar-5
In reply to this post by Shaka NKofo
> I'm used to learning tech from scratch and mastering then using it but
> my work load is punishing and I would like to clean up DNS on my lan
> since the devices are just adding up too fast...
what a problem with DNS? It is rather easy.

I could help you on priv if you like, if you will clean up your mail and
use something that is not archived by huge corporation. Unless you use
gmail only for mailing lists.

1234 ... 6