But there is Fossil...

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But there is Fossil...

goleo
Git is the most popular VCS (and most ugly), meanwhile
there are people who prefer to reimplement it because
they don't like its license... FreeBSD is working on OpenGit,
OpenBSD is working on Game of Trees, but why reimplement
the wheel instead of using a better solution: Fossil?

I like CVS and SQLite used CVS in the past and then
they INNOVATED Fossil - distributed version control
system, usable as CVS, it has neat autosync feature,
I don't need to explicitly use push and pull because
that happens automatically. Fossil can also work with
multiple branches at once (Git can work only with one
branch at time). And Fossil's web UI is amazing, have
you ever seen Fossil's timeline?

I am sure people behind Fossil are the people who love
CVS, they made CVS perfect (unlike people behind SVN).

I am running Fossil to synchronize my ports work on
laptop and computer and I am amazed how easy it is,
how I wish I had my own domain to share my work
(both finished and WIP) to public...
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Re: But there is Fossil...

chohag
[hidden email] writes:
> Git is the most popular VCS (and most ugly), meanwhile
> there are people who prefer to reimplement it because
> they don't like its license... FreeBSD is working on OpenGit,
> OpenBSD is working on Game of Trees, but why reimplement
> the wheel instead of using a better solution: Fossil?
>
> [snip 3 paragraphs of indecent exposure]

How convenient that there is a tradition of collecting together the
questions that are asked frequently into a location that's easy to
find. A list of "Frequently Asked Questions", if you will.

I'd never even heard of Game of Trees until your email yet I've
already been able to answer all of your questions by reading it's
own god-damn website.

https://gameoftrees.org/faq.html

Read The Fucking FAQ

Matthew

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Re: But there is Fossil...

goleo
January 4, 2020 6:45 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> [hidden email] writes:
>
>> Git is the most popular VCS (and most ugly), meanwhile
>> there are people who prefer to reimplement it because
>> they don't like its license... FreeBSD is working on OpenGit,
>> OpenBSD is working on Game of Trees, but why reimplement
>> the wheel instead of using a better solution: Fossil?
>>
>> [snip 3 paragraphs of indecent exposure]
>
> How convenient that there is a tradition of collecting together the
> questions that are asked frequently into a location that's easy to
> find. A list of "Frequently Asked Questions", if you will.
>
> I'd never even heard of Game of Trees until your email yet I've
> already been able to answer all of your questions by reading it's
> own god-damn website.
>
> https://gameoftrees.org/faq.html
>
> Read The Fucking FAQ
>
> Matthew

I never read entire FAQ, what I actually read is chosen
based on header's name, if header's name does not match
what I am looking for, I simply skip it to not waste time
on reading what I don't need to know, so it was enough
for me to read goals.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Florian Obser
On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 04:59:40PM +0000, [hidden email] wrote:
> I never read

Please stop wasting our time then.

Thanks,
Florian

--
I'm not entirely sure you are real.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Karel Gardas
In reply to this post by goleo

Fossil is superfine and I'd like it for various reasons too, but
unfortunately it does not scale to the OpenBSD repo size well.

As a test, you can try and clone fossil repo of NetBSD and I'm sure you
will find out quickly why people are working on GoT and OpenGIT.

On 1/4/20 5:20 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Git is the most popular VCS (and most ugly), meanwhile
> there are people who prefer to reimplement it because
> they don't like its license... FreeBSD is working on OpenGit,
> OpenBSD is working on Game of Trees, but why reimplement
> the wheel instead of using a better solution: Fossil?
>
> I like CVS and SQLite used CVS in the past and then
> they INNOVATED Fossil - distributed version control
> system, usable as CVS, it has neat autosync feature,
> I don't need to explicitly use push and pull because
> that happens automatically. Fossil can also work with
> multiple branches at once (Git can work only with one
> branch at time). And Fossil's web UI is amazing, have
> you ever seen Fossil's timeline?
>
> I am sure people behind Fossil are the people who love
> CVS, they made CVS perfect (unlike people behind SVN).
>
> I am running Fossil to synchronize my ports work on
> laptop and computer and I am amazed how easy it is,
> how I wish I had my own domain to share my work
> (both finished and WIP) to public...

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Roderick

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, Karel Gardas wrote:

> Fossil is superfine and I'd like it for various reasons too, but unfortunately
> it does not scale to the OpenBSD repo size well.
>
> As a test, you can try and clone fossil repo of NetBSD and I'm sure you will
> find out quickly why people are working on GoT and OpenGIT.

Perhaps no test necessary, but to read this:

http://fossil-scm.org/home/technote/be8f2f3447ef2ea3344f8058b6733aa08c08336f

But is there realy a need to substitute CVS?

And why should be any repository Git or Got like Git? Because any script
must be python?

And yes, I also like fossil very much.

Rodrigo

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Re: But there is Fossil...

goleo
January 4, 2020 10:36 PM, "Roderick" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, Karel Gardas wrote:
>
>> Fossil is superfine and I'd like it for various reasons too, but unfortunately
>> it does not scale to the OpenBSD repo size well.
>>
>> As a test, you can try and clone fossil repo of NetBSD and I'm sure you will
>> find out quickly why people are working on GoT and OpenGIT.
>
> Perhaps no test necessary, but to read this:
>
> http://fossil-scm.org/home/technote/be8f2f3447ef2ea3344f8058b6733aa08c08336f
>

Thank you, this was a really nice read and once again I am sure
that GoT and OpenGit are ridiculous, that issue in Fossil should
be fixed soon, so I don't understand what's wrong with FreeBSD
and OpenBSD.

> But is there realy a need to substitute CVS?
>
> And why should be any repository Git or Got like Git? Because any script
> must be python?
>
> And yes, I also like fossil very much.
>
> Rodrigo

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Roderick


On Sun, 5 Jan 2020, [hidden email] wrote:

> so I don't understand what's wrong with FreeBSD and OpenBSD.

I do not see a problem in CVS.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

goleo
January 5, 2020 2:24 AM, "Roderick" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Jan 2020, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> so I don't understand what's wrong with FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
>
> I do not see a problem in CVS.

Sure, but I started this thread because of OpenBSD's plan
to migrate to Git.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Stefan Sperling-5
On Sun, Jan 05, 2020 at 12:33:58AM +0000, [hidden email] wrote:

> January 5, 2020 2:24 AM, "Roderick" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 2020, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> >> so I don't understand what's wrong with FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
> >
> > I do not see a problem in CVS.
>
> Sure, but I started this thread because of OpenBSD's plan
> to migrate to Git.

Stop posting please.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Stuart Henderson
In reply to this post by goleo
On 2020/01/05 00:33, [hidden email] wrote:

> January 5, 2020 2:24 AM, "Roderick" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 5 Jan 2020, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> >> so I don't understand what's wrong with FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
> >
> > I do not see a problem in CVS.
>
> Sure, but I started this thread because of OpenBSD's plan
> to migrate to Git.
>

What plan?

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Theo de Raadt-2
In reply to this post by goleo
>I am running Fossil to synchronize my ports work on
>laptop and computer and I am amazed how easy it is,
>how I wish I had my own domain to share my work
>(both finished and WIP) to public...

wow, you don't even have your own domain.  you sound poor.

that makes it easy to guess you don't know what it takes to run a large
project where hundreds of people directly engage in the repository,
and many thousands more observe.

so you simply have no scope.  you don't understand.  you are utterly clueless
what it takes to get to scale.

so you don't know what you are talking about, and yet you show up here
to preach.

why don't you walk into the jungle and find some people to
prosthelytize to?  i'm going to guess that means go west.
 
wow this is going downhill.  random solo-repo people telling us what to do
when Chuck Cranor and I started this whole export-the-repo model.

get some perspective dude, hopefully in the jungle.

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Keep up the good work (was: Re: But there is Fossil...)

chohag
In reply to this post by Stuart Henderson
Stuart Henderson writes:

> On 2020/01/05 00:33, [hidden email] wrote:
> > January 5, 2020 2:24 AM, "Roderick" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 5 Jan 2020, [hidden email] wrote:
> > >
> > >> so I don't understand what's wrong with FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
> > >
> > > I do not see a problem in CVS.
> >
> > Sure, but I started this thread because of OpenBSD's plan
> > to migrate to Git.
> >
>
> What plan?

The plan which the OP would be aware doesn't exist were he to have
bothered reading the FAQ he decided had too many words. Throwing
away 30 years of work is A-OK, even expected, in this brave new
CADT world so the alternative -- foundation technology should not
be ripped out willy-nilly -- is an idea they simply cannot have.

At this point it's clear he's either trolling or wilfully retarded.
Either way not worth continuing with.

To end positively I will add that a simpler git front-end, for want
of a better term, will be a useful addition to the space of revision
control tools. It's looking good so far. Keep it up.

Matthew

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Diana Eichert
In reply to this post by Theo de Raadt-2
On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:48 PM Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
SNIP

> wow this is going downhill.  random solo-repo people telling us what to do
> when Chuck Cranor and I started this whole export-the-repo model.
>
> get some perspective dude, hopefully in the jungle.

It seems like a lot of people in this thread don't understand, a good
read is http://chuck.cranor.org/p/anoncvs.pdf

It took me 10 seconds reading Chuck Cranor's web page to find it.

Not certain why there has been so much noise on misc@ lately.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

goleo
January 5, 2020 5:50 PM, "Diana Eichert" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:48 PM Theo de Raadt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>
> SNIP
>
>> wow this is going downhill. random solo-repo people telling us what to do
>> when Chuck Cranor and I started this whole export-the-repo model.
>>
>> get some perspective dude, hopefully in the jungle.
>
> It seems like a lot of people in this thread don't understand, a good
> read is http://chuck.cranor.org/p/anoncvs.pdf
>
> It took me 10 seconds reading Chuck Cranor's web page to find it.
>
> Not certain why there has been so much noise on misc@ lately.

done reading that entire document, however, this is a topic about
OpenBSD choosing Git over Fossil, but the actual problem is
reimplementing Git (Game of Trees is a Git implementation just
like OpenGit) and that's ridiculous, however, having read
that PDF document I question: which of those problems are
present in Fossil, not Git? in presence of those problems,
why not wait for fix in Fossil instead of rushing to
reimplement Git? I always see the point in two things:
1. using something existing
2. innovating something new

Game of Trees and OpenGit are not innovations, they are
implementations of existing innovation, if you've seen my
first message, I suggested option 1

there are OpenBSD innovations I really like: pf, doas, sndio

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Stefan Sperling-5
On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 06:28:48PM +0000, [hidden email] wrote:

> done reading that entire document, however, this is a topic about
> OpenBSD choosing Git over Fossil, but the actual problem is
> reimplementing Git (Game of Trees is a Git implementation just
> like OpenGit) and that's ridiculous, however, having read
> that PDF document I question: which of those problems are
> present in Fossil, not Git? in presence of those problems,
> why not wait for fix in Fossil instead of rushing to
> reimplement Git? I always see the point in two things:
> 1. using something existing
> 2. innovating something new
>
> Game of Trees and OpenGit are not innovations, they are
> implementations of existing innovation, if you've seen my
> first message, I suggested option 1

Look, if you don't like something why don't you just ignore it?
Instead of wasting time by writing pointless messages which the
many people on this list now have to delete from their inbox?

The gameoftrees FAQ says:
""
We don't need to hear your opinion that our project is pointless because
Git is superior. Thank you!
""
The same applies to Fossil or whatever else anyone thinks is superior.

Why should I care about your opinion on what I should be working
on in my spare time? It looks like you're just trying to annoy me.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Anders Andersson
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:03 PM Stefan Sperling <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 06:28:48PM +0000, [hidden email] wrote:
> > done reading that entire document, however, this is a topic about
> > OpenBSD choosing Git over Fossil, but the actual problem is
> > reimplementing Git (Game of Trees is a Git implementation just
> > like OpenGit) and that's ridiculous, however, having read
> > that PDF document I question: which of those problems are
> > present in Fossil, not Git? in presence of those problems,
> > why not wait for fix in Fossil instead of rushing to
> > reimplement Git? I always see the point in two things:
> > 1. using something existing
> > 2. innovating something new
> >
> > Game of Trees and OpenGit are not innovations, they are
> > implementations of existing innovation, if you've seen my
> > first message, I suggested option 1
>
> Look, if you don't like something why don't you just ignore it?
> Instead of wasting time by writing pointless messages which the
> many people on this list now have to delete from their inbox?
>
> The gameoftrees FAQ says:
> ""
> We don't need to hear your opinion that our project is pointless because
> Git is superior. Thank you!
> ""
> The same applies to Fossil or whatever else anyone thinks is superior.
>
> Why should I care about your opinion on what I should be working
> on in my spare time? It looks like you're just trying to annoy me.

One good thing with this trainwreck of a discussion is that it pointed
me to GoT. I've been looking for an alternative to CVS on my Amiga,
but git is too convoluted to even start trying to build on a
mostly-C89-semi-POSIX system. GoT seems like a much nicer starting
point.

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Marc Espie-2
On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 09:34:55PM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote:
> One good thing with this trainwreck of a discussion is that it pointed
> me to GoT. I've been looking for an alternative to CVS on my Amiga,
> but git is too convoluted to even start trying to build on a
> mostly-C89-semi-POSIX system. GoT seems like a much nicer starting
> point.
>
>
Good luck with that. I'm not quite sure Matt Dillon's unix compatibility
goo is going to be enough to convince amigaos to build got

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Re: But there is Fossil...

Constantine A. Murenin
The problem with Fossil is lack of a driving force.

GitHub is so successful because it is non-trivial to get Git working.  Now
that Git is a standard, there's a lot of copycats for GitHub itself,
because every developer knows Git.*

Fossil seems to be pretty easy to use all by itself, hence there's no
service similar to GitHub, because the added value would be considerably
smaller, plus you'll be going up against the giants like Git and GitHub; in
fact, Bitbucket has already abandoned Mercurial support recently, embracing
the monoculture of Git.

If anyone's more interested in Fossil, http://fossil-scm.org/ website
itself runs on Fossil (yes, it's self-hosted, and, yes, Fossil itself comes
with a CMS, as well as a bug-tracking system), but there's also
https://src.fossil.netbsd.org/ — the timeline interface is claimed to be
the best feature of Fossil, it provides great visual representation of
commits on all the branches as they happen; e.g.,
https://src.fossil.netbsd.org/timeline?n=50&b=2020-01-02+15:42:26 (in case
there's nothing on branches on this link, see http://archive.is/dmKxZ , or
http://web.archive.org/web/20200107001225/https://src.fossil.netbsd.org/timeline?n=50&b=2020-01-02+15:42:26
, which shows exactly which release branches were updated at what time and
in what order).  The other key difference of Fossil compared to Git is that
the whole history of work is permanent, not transient like in Git's branch
and squash-merge model, e.g., you don't just remove things (like branches)
from the repository that were there yesterday, like in Git, and unlike in
CVS or many other systems.

Does it mean OpenBSD and/or NetBSD should switch to Fossil?  No, that's not
what I said.

Cheers,
Constantine.                      http://cm.su/
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Re: But there is Fossil...

Sean Kamath-5


> On Jan 6, 2020, at 16:18, Constantine A. Murenin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> GitHub is so successful because it is non-trivial to get Git working.

I found gitea trivial to install.

Having said that, I use whatever repo projects provide.  I’m not here to say VCS “A” is better than VCS “B”, just saying installing various VCS’s under OpenBSD is pretty damn simple.

Sean

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