Architeture Choose

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Architeture Choose

Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
Hi All,

I'm long time far from OpenBSD world, but planning to come back.
The plan is to buy an old machine, but, maybe try an new platform, if the
investment worths...

I have these options, all in the same price range:

A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM - CDROM ->
US$ 350

B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD -> US$ 320,00

C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> US$ 320,00

The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities, with
better stablity as possible.

I don't think that I will need to upgrade for an period, but pieces that
have mechanical components (Hd, cooler) may be a problem, if they are
platform-exclusive...

Thanks for any help, and sorry for any mistake in my English..

Best Regards,
Felipe
SP-Brazil

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Re: Architeture Choose

LeviaComm Networks NOC
On 05-Nov-10 05:47, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira wrote:
> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD ->  US$ 320,00
>
> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities, with
> better stablity as possible.
>

You'll get a lot more performance out of the AMD X2.  Plus both i386 and
AMD64 are still king in the commodity hardware market, and are a
dime-a-dozen nowadays.  Literally everyone and their grandmothers own
x86 based hardware.  The i386 platform has support for the most bits of
hardware and replacement parts are stupidly easy to come by.

-Christopher Ahrens-
-Co-founder
-LeviaComm Networks-

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Re: Architeture Choose

Jeremy Chase
I have an emac that I just updated to 4.8 macppc, and it as expected,
it works great.B I used to run OpenBSD on an old ultra5, and it also
worked great. x86 might be the most common, but the other
architectures work very well too.

For what you are doing it looks like all these machines will be fine
from a performance standpoint, but as Christopher said, the Athlon
will be the snappiest. I'd still get the Sun box though, assuming the
fan noise isn't a problem.

--
Jeremy Chase
http://twitter.com/jeremychase



On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 9:14 AM, LeviaComm Networks <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 05-Nov-10 05:47, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira wrote:
>>
>> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> B US$ 320,00
>>
>> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities,
with
>> better stablity as possible.
>>
>
> You'll get a lot more performance out of the AMD X2. B Plus both i386 and
AMD64 are still king in the commodity hardware market, and are a dime-a-dozen
nowadays. B Literally everyone and their grandmothers own x86 based hardware.
B The i386 platform has support for the most bits of hardware and replacement
parts are stupidly easy to come by.
>
> -Christopher Ahrens-
> -Co-founder
> -LeviaComm Networks-

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Re: Architeture Choose

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
On 11/05/10 08:46, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm long time far from OpenBSD world, but planning to come back.
> The plan is to buy an old machine, but, maybe try an new platform, if the
> investment worths...
>
> I have these options, all in the same price range:
>
> A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM - CDROM ->
> US$ 350
>
> B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD ->  US$ 320,00
>
> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD ->  US$ 320,00
>
> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities, with
> better stablity as possible.
>
> I don't think that I will need to upgrade for an period, but pieces that
> have mechanical components (Hd, cooler) may be a problem, if they are
> platform-exclusive...
>
> Thanks for any help, and sorry for any mistake in my English..
>
> Best Regards,
> Felipe
> SP-Brazil

well...  Given that choice, I'd go for the Athlon if you need
performance (you probably won't), or the Sun Fire v100 if you want to
learn something new.

I'm not fond of MacPPC machines for the very reason many people love
them: the style.  The cute cases are a pain in the butt to deal with --
I use a lot of wire rack shelving units, I actually have to velcro-tie
the tower macppc systems to the rack to keep the bottom handle from
slipping over the front of the shelf and ending up on the floor.

The prices on all of them seem high to me, at least in my market.  That
doesn't mean much.  :)

One thing to consider is what happens if the box itself fails.  OpenBSD
is great about moving disks to new hardware in the same platform, but if
your Sun fails, you need a compatible sun, if your MacPPC fails, you
need another macppc, if your amd64 fails, you need another amd64 (or
i386, if you have installed OpenBSD/i386).  So, if you run on a macppc
or sun system, in the event of failure, you will need to put your hands
on a similar machine quickly.  The 160G disks in the Sun Fire v100 might
hurt you in that regard -- a lot of the Sun IDE disk systems are hw
limited to 128G, so you won't be able to stick your 160G disks in an
Ultra5, Ultra10, or a Blade100 should your v100 fail.  If you go with
this machine, I'd put smaller disks in it in case you have to fall back
to a U5/U10.

If you have to do a cross-platform move, it will require restoring data
from your backup, you can't (in general) mount disks from one platform
in another and read the data.


Nick.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Jeremy Chase
> I'm not fond of MacPPC machines for the very reason many people love them:
> the style. B The cute cases are a pain in the butt to deal with

I second that. I had to replace the HD in my emac and I literally had
to take the motherboard out to get access.

--
Jeremy Chase
http://twitter.com/jeremychase




On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Nick Holland
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/05/10 08:46, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm long time far from OpenBSD world, but planning to come back.
>> The plan is to buy an old machine, but, maybe try an new platform, if the
>> investment worths...
>>
>> I have these options, all in the same price range:
>>
>> A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM - CDROM ->
>> US$ 350
>>
>> B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD -> B US$ 320,00
>>
>> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> B US$ 320,00
>>
>> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities,
>> with
>> better stablity as possible.
>>
>> I don't think that I will need to upgrade for an period, but pieces that
>> have mechanical components (Hd, cooler) may be a problem, if they are
>> platform-exclusive...
>>
>> Thanks for any help, and sorry for any mistake in my English..
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Felipe
>> SP-Brazil
>
> well... B Given that choice, I'd go for the Athlon if you need performance
> (you probably won't), or the Sun Fire v100 if you want to learn something
> new.
>
> I'm not fond of MacPPC machines for the very reason many people love them:
> the style. B The cute cases are a pain in the butt to deal with -- I use a
> lot of wire rack shelving units, I actually have to velcro-tie the tower
> macppc systems to the rack to keep the bottom handle from slipping over the
> front of the shelf and ending up on the floor.
>
> The prices on all of them seem high to me, at least in my market. B That
> doesn't mean much. B :)
>
> One thing to consider is what happens if the box itself fails. B OpenBSD is
> great about moving disks to new hardware in the same platform, but if your
> Sun fails, you need a compatible sun, if your MacPPC fails, you need
another
> macppc, if your amd64 fails, you need another amd64 (or i386, if you have
> installed OpenBSD/i386). B So, if you run on a macppc or sun system, in the
> event of failure, you will need to put your hands on a similar machine
> quickly. B The 160G disks in the Sun Fire v100 might hurt you in that
regard
> -- a lot of the Sun IDE disk systems are hw limited to 128G, so you won't
be
> able to stick your 160G disks in an Ultra5, Ultra10, or a Blade100 should
> your v100 fail. B If you go with this machine, I'd put smaller disks in it
in
> case you have to fall back to a U5/U10.
>
> If you have to do a cross-platform move, it will require restoring data
from
> your backup, you can't (in general) mount disks from one platform in
another
> and read the data.
>
>
> Nick.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
In reply to this post by Jeremy Chase
Back to tha listing.... =)

Thank you everybody for the answers.

About the prices, in Brazil we have MercadoLivre (sort of a eBay).... Every
kind of equipament here is more expensive because of both shipping and
fees.. I've "translated" the prices to US dollar for you to know which
choice will be the best cost-benefit option....

What I really like about the Sun Server was the size... any of the other
will take me much more space... BUT, how the guys adviced me, the pictures
can't tell how loud the fan can sound...

The idea was really to learn something new...  I've already used OBSD under
i386 with really good results (about a year w/o restart)... I wonder if the
other platforms are as good as i386, or even better, form the point of
stability...


Cheers,
Felipe
SP-Brazil

On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Jeremy Chase <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Excellent email, but you didn't send it to the original author. I
> included him on this forward. :)
>
> --
> Jeremy Chase
> http://twitter.com/jeremychase
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:15 PM, David Astua <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > 2010/11/5 Jeremy Chase <[hidden email]>:
> >> I have an emac that I just updated to 4.8 macppc, and it as expected,
> >> it works great.B I used to run OpenBSD on an old ultra5, and it also
> >> worked great. x86 might be the most common, but the other
> >> architectures work very well too.
> >>
> >> For what you are doing it looks like all these machines will be fine
> >> from a performance standpoint, but as Christopher said, the Athlon
> >> will be the snappiest. I'd still get the Sun box though, assuming the
> >> fan noise isn't a problem.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jeremy Chase
> >> http://twitter.com/jeremychase
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 9:14 AM, LeviaComm Networks <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 05-Nov-10 05:47, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> B US$ 320,00
> >>>>
> >>>> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall
> funcionalities,
> >> with
> >>>> better stablity as possible.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> You'll get a lot more performance out of the AMD X2. B Plus both i386
> and
> >> AMD64 are still king in the commodity hardware market, and are a
> dime-a-dozen
> >> nowadays. B Literally everyone and their grandmothers own x86 based
> hardware.
> >> B The i386 platform has support for the most bits of hardware and
> replacement
> >> parts are stupidly easy to come by.
> >>>
> >>> -Christopher Ahrens-
> >>> -Co-founder
> >>> -LeviaComm Networks-
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I've got two old Sun servers one month ago, one of them is a Sunfire
> > like the one you're planing to buy the other is a Netra X1 a bit less
> > powerful. Coincidentally my desktop has the same configuration as the
> > AMD you're mentioning, the performance of the desktop is a bit better,
> > anyway i need to do some further testing. Because think the Sun would
> > respond better under heavy load against the normal performance
> > degradation on my desktop if there's a lot of requests.
> >
> > I'm just messing around with this non-traditional architecture, but
> > take care of the fan noise stated above, the NIC's bundled in the Sun
> > equipments are much better than most on-board NICs, also the LOM
> > interface on the Sun servers is really nice.
> > They're working smoothly!
> >
> > Where are you planning to buy the equipment? I notice that the prices
> > for the equipments are a bit high (for eBay), or you've to pay a lot
> > of shipping/taxes?
> >
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > Best regards;
> >    -- David A.
> >
> > NOTE: If you bought the Sun server don't forget to get the RJ45 -> DB9
> > converter.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Joe McDonagh
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
"If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
of 0 in my experience.

If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
this hardware is as stable as a Sun.

On 11/05/2010 01:14 PM, Nick Holland wrote:

> On 11/05/10 08:46, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm long time far from OpenBSD world, but planning to come back.
>> The plan is to buy an old machine, but, maybe try an new platform, if
>> the
>> investment worths...
>>
>> I have these options, all in the same price range:
>>
>> A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM -
>> CDROM ->
>> US$ 350
>>
>> B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD ->  US$ 320,00
>>
>> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD ->  US$ 320,00
>>
>> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall
>> funcionalities, with
>> better stablity as possible.
>>
>> I don't think that I will need to upgrade for an period, but pieces that
>> have mechanical components (Hd, cooler) may be a problem, if they are
>> platform-exclusive...
>>
>> Thanks for any help, and sorry for any mistake in my English..
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Felipe
>> SP-Brazil
>
> well...  Given that choice, I'd go for the Athlon if you need
> performance (you probably won't), or the Sun Fire v100 if you want to
> learn something new.
>
> I'm not fond of MacPPC machines for the very reason many people love
> them: the style.  The cute cases are a pain in the butt to deal with
> -- I use a lot of wire rack shelving units, I actually have to
> velcro-tie the tower macppc systems to the rack to keep the bottom
> handle from slipping over the front of the shelf and ending up on the
> floor.
>
> The prices on all of them seem high to me, at least in my market.  
> That doesn't mean much.  :)
>
> One thing to consider is what happens if the box itself fails.  
> OpenBSD is great about moving disks to new hardware in the same
> platform, but if your Sun fails, you need a compatible sun, if your
> MacPPC fails, you need another macppc, if your amd64 fails, you need
> another amd64 (or i386, if you have installed OpenBSD/i386).  So, if
> you run on a macppc or sun system, in the event of failure, you will
> need to put your hands on a similar machine quickly.  The 160G disks
> in the Sun Fire v100 might hurt you in that regard -- a lot of the Sun
> IDE disk systems are hw limited to 128G, so you won't be able to stick
> your 160G disks in an Ultra5, Ultra10, or a Blade100 should your v100
> fail.  If you go with this machine, I'd put smaller disks in it in
> case you have to fall back to a U5/U10.
>
> If you have to do a cross-platform move, it will require restoring
> data from your backup, you can't (in general) mount disks from one
> platform in another and read the data.
>
>
> Nick.
>


--
Joe McDonagh
AIM: YoosingYoonickz
IRC: joe-mac on freenode
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

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Re: Architeture Choose

Bryan Irvine
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Joe McDonagh
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility of 0
> in my experience.
>
> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of this
> hardware is as stable as a Sun.

Agreed

I've only seen 3 Sun hardware failures (I'm talking about sparcs) in
something like 15 years (not counting things like disks or whatever).
One was an IPX, that had a motherboard battery die and was easily
replaced, but took some work to figure out how to rewrite the prom
(after 17 or so years this is still running), another e450 that
someone had modified to 'make it faster' and it kept blowing some CPU
bridge-thing, and another ultra 1 with an actual logic board failure
(it was 10 years old by that point though).

as an aside I've thought about putting a bigger disk in the IPX just
to see how long it takes to make a release.  My netra T1 takes 24
hours and 5.5 seconds to make a full release (including X).  Based on
absolutely no calculations at all I'd guess a month and 5 seconds.

Just for fun:
OpenBSD 4.7 (GENERIC) #152: Fri Mar 19 02:33:48 MDT 2010
  [hidden email]:/usr/src/sys/arch/sparc/compile/GENERIC
real mem = 66973696 (63MB)
avail mem = 59752448 (56MB)
mainbus0 at root: SUNW,Sun 4/50
cpu0 at mainbus0: W8601/8701 or MB86903 @ 40 MHz, on-chip FPU; cache
chip bug - trap page uncached
cpu0: 64K byte write-through, 32 bytes/line, hw flush cache enabled
memreg0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf4000000
clock0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf2000000: mk48t02 (eeprom)
timer0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf3000000 delay constant 17
auxreg0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf7400003
zs0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf1000000 pri 12, softpri 6
zstty0 at zs0 channel 0
zstty1 at zs0 channel 1
zs1 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf0000000 pri 12, softpri 6
zskbd0 at zs1 channel 0: keyboard, type 5, layout 0x22
wskbd0 at zskbd0: console keyboard
zsms0 at zs1 channel 1
wsmouse0 at zsms0 mux 0
audioamd0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf7201000 pri 13, softpri 4
audio0 at audioamd0
sbus0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf8000000: clock = 20 MHz
dma0 at sbus0 slot 0 offset 0x400000: rev 1+
esp0 at sbus0 slot 0 offset 0x800000 pri 3: ESP100A, 25MHz
scsibus0 at esp0: 8 targets, initiator 7
probe(esp0:3:0): max sync rate 8.33MB/s
sd0 at scsibus0 targ 3 lun 0: <IBMRAID, DFHSS4F9337, 4I4I> SCSI2 0/direct fixed
sd0: 4303MB, 512 bytes/sec, 8813870 sec total
le0 at sbus0 slot 0 offset 0xc00000 pri 5: address 08:00:20:08:b4:84
le0: 16 receive buffers, 4 transmit buffers
dma1 at sbus0 slot 1 offset 0x81000: rev esc
esp1 at dma1 offset 0x80000 pri 3: ESP200, 40MHz
scsibus1 at esp1: 8 targets, initiator 7
lebuffer0 at sbus0 slot 1 offset 0x40000: 128K memory
le1 at lebuffer0 offset 0x60000 pri 5: address 08:00:20:08:b4:84
le1: 64 receive buffers, 16 transmit buffers
dma2 at sbus0 slot 2 offset 0x81000: rev esc
esp2 at dma2 offset 0x80000 pri 3: ESP200, 25MHz
scsibus2 at esp2: 8 targets, initiator 7
lebuffer1 at sbus0 slot 2 offset 0x40000: 128K memory
le2 at lebuffer1 offset 0x60000 pri 5: address 08:00:20:08:b4:84
le2: 64 receive buffers, 16 transmit buffers
cgsix0 at sbus0 slot 3 offset 0x0 pri 7: SUNW,501-1672, 1152x900, rev 8
wsdisplay0 at cgsix0 mux 1: console (std, sun emulation), using wskbd0
fdc0 at mainbus0 ioaddr 0xf7200000 pri 11, softpri 4: chip 82072
fd0 at fdc0 drive 0: 1.44MB 80 cyl, 2 head, 18 sec
vscsi0 at root
scsibus3 at vscsi0: 256 targets
softraid0 at root
bootpath: /sbus@1,f8000000/esp@0,800000/sd@3,0
root on sd0a swap on sd0b dump on sd0

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Re: Architeture Choose

Paolo Aglialoro
In reply to this post by Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
Hi Felipe,

I'd immediately exclude B, as apple hardware is sometimes a nightmare to
jack with and, due to lack of proper fresh air inflow, their logic boards
(=motherboards) die at a greater range than other vendors' ones.

Go on C if you just need bare power and an easy way to find spare parts in
case of damages. Anyway, the machine C is not a server, so, if you don't
regularly keep it clean (physically! be a dustbuster!), checked and backed
up you might have surprises on the long run.

Go on A if you need a real server, keeping an eye on disks (they will be
"crunched" after all those years, so already plan a substitution with fresh
ones). If the machine will be in order, it'll last for many years to come...
(don't forget a good UPS!). Btw, if you are kinda "risky" you might also try
to mount on it a gigabit card... although I dunno if the CPU can handle
reliably that much throughput!

Ciao :)



On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM - CDROM ->
> US$ 350
>
> B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD -> US$ 320,00
>
> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> US$ 320,00
>
> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities,
> with
> better stablity as possible.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Nick Holland
In reply to this post by Joe McDonagh
On 11/05/10 14:29, Joe McDonagh wrote:
> "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
> of 0 in my experience.
>
> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.

Good to hear your experience with sun HW is better than mine.

SS20s overheat
U1's pop power supplies (gone through three in my PERSONAL stock!)
U5/U10/AXi pop processors (three, in my personal stock)
U2's have issues with connectors (blow out dust, clean 'em up, can do
much better).
That's all my personal systems.  At work, I have evidence that E250s and
E450s blow power supplies (the bad power supplies make great monitor
stands), v250 power supplies are expensive to get (and they DON'T make
good monitor stands), T1-105s can blow main boards, E4500s can blow CPUs
(and come back up with the bad processor off-line in solaris.
impressive!).  T2000s light up wrench lights and finding out why is a
surprisingly difficult.
(this is all ignoring the CMOS batteries which die and take out the
system's MAC address).

On the other hand, I have a U60 that had a very traumatic trip to my
front porch, judging from the amount of uncracked case plastic on it and
unbent frame in it (none.  Thing probably took one heck of a chunk out
of the UPS truck), but still works just fine, and a U5 at work that has
been running an app for probably the last ten years with probably less
than five hours total downtime (original disk.  I'm scared).  I can
point to PCs with similar feats, though.

Suns are good, but they aren't beyond failure, and since failure means
you can't stick the disks in a commodity machine, you had best be
prepared in advance for the failure of the hardware.

Anyway... All hardware can fail. Be ready for it.  Don't pretend it
won't, unless you already have the new job lined up.

If you run a highly regarded brand that "doesn't fail", you will be
worse off than the person who runs known-junk, but has spare parts on
hand and a plan to deal with failures.

(I work at a place with some "doesn't fail" stuff that does...and a lot
of old junk that we have spare parts for which is less scary when things
break.  Now, if only I could convince management to keep my junk pile
deep and wide).

Nick.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Jan Stary
In reply to this post by Paolo Aglialoro
> > The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities,
> > with> better stablity as possible.

You might want to consider separating the firewall
from everything else. What you want from a firewall machine can be
(and probably is) very different than what you want from a "server".

> > A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM - CDROM ->
> > US$ 350
> >
> > B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD -> US$ 320,00
> >
> > C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> US$ 320,00

Assuming that each of these is enough for your intended server,
I would go for the Athlon, because i386/amd64 hardware is
ubiquitous and laughably cheap, so if something breaks, you
will find a replacement for peanuts. No exactly so with Sun
or Apple hardware.

That said, $320 seems to much to me.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Henning Brauer
In reply to this post by Nick Holland
* Nick <[hidden email]> [2010-11-07 05:16]:

> On 11/05/10 14:29, Joe McDonagh wrote:
> > "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
> > of 0 in my experience.
> >
> > If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
> > this hardware is as stable as a Sun.
>
> Good to hear your experience with sun HW is better than mine.
>
> SS20s overheat
> U1's pop power supplies (gone through three in my PERSONAL stock!)
> U5/U10/AXi pop processors (three, in my personal stock)
> U2's have issues with connectors (blow out dust, clean 'em up, can do
> much better).
> That's all my personal systems.  At work, I have evidence that E250s and
> E450s blow power supplies (the bad power supplies make great monitor
> stands), v250 power supplies are expensive to get (and they DON'T make
> good monitor stands), T1-105s can blow main boards, E4500s can blow CPUs
> (and come back up with the bad processor off-line in solaris.
> impressive!).  T2000s light up wrench lights and finding out why is a
> surprisingly difficult.
> (this is all ignoring the CMOS batteries which die and take out the
> system's MAC address).

interesting. i run ~25 t1 105s. for ages. 3 have fan failures. that's
it. and they run fine without replacing that fan even :)
a handful of v100, v120, v210 each. no failures at all.

i think i had one ss20 die ages ago. at a point where that kind of
machine was ancient already. i still have a stack of them somewhere.
prety sure if i'd power them up now the vast majority would be ok
after un-dusting, reseating mem and the like. my u1s are alive (but
off too). the ss5s probably in the same boat as the ss20s. even the
really ancient ipxes are pbly still ok. can't be bothered to check tho.
u5/u10 was crap, for sun standards, and if memory serves i had one out
of 3 fail. u30 alive. e220r, e420r, no failures.
so the only ones that ever failed (fans and disks i expect to fail
sooner or later, so my definition of "machine failed" excludes these
parts) were not from the server line, but workstations. that matches
the majority of your list.

that track record is way ahead of anything else i run and ever ran. i
have to add here that i have extremely low failure rates. apparently a
pretty good hand at picking hardware plus a very friendly environment -
data center, very stable and low temp, high forced airflow, very little
dust.

oh, and that covers only sparc/sparc64 gear. sun's x86 gear was never
even remotely up to that standards, haven't seen a single that
remotely convinced me, the few i worked with... x2100 of both generations
were the trigger to not consider sun for x86 gear, they're misdesigned
shit. recently worked with some x4something at a customer, holy crap,
their management stuff these days is so incredibly bad and not helping
at all, but drastically in the way.

--
Henning Brauer, [hidden email], [hidden email]
BS Web Services, http://bsws.de
Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services
Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting

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Re: Architeture Choose

Michael Grigoni
On 7 Nov 2010 at 11:32, Henning Brauer wrote:


> even the
> really ancient ipxes are pbly still ok. can't be bothered to check tho.

Still using several ipxes here, online 24/7, one is the obsd border
router.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Eric S Pulley
In reply to this post by Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
--On November 5, 2010 9:47:20 AM -0300 Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm long time far from OpenBSD world, but planning to come back.
> The plan is to buy an old machine, but, maybe try an new platform, if the
> investment worths...
>
> I have these options, all in the same price range:
>
> A) Sun Fire V100 UltraSPARC IIi 650 Mhz - 2x160Gb Hd - 2Gb RAM - CDROM ->
> US$ 350
>
> B) Apple Power PC G4 733 Mhz - 768 Gb RAM - 38Gb HD -> US$ 320,00
>
> C) Atlhon 64 X2 +5200, 2 GB RAM, 160Gb HD -> US$ 320,00
>
> The idea is to build an server with: WWW/Email/Firewall funcionalities,
> with better stablity as possible.
>
> I don't think that I will need to upgrade for an period, but pieces that
> have mechanical components (Hd, cooler) may be a problem, if they are
> platform-exclusive...
>
> Thanks for any help, and sorry for any mistake in my English..

Most of the time I would say go with the Sun server for relatively trouble
free computing. However the v100 has no PCI expandability and only a pretty
wimpy IDE bus. So if you want to upgrade to GigE or add more disk you are
SOL. If you can get your hands on a v120 its almost the same system but
with a internal/external SCSI bus and one expansion port. (down side to
this is the 2 internal SCSI drives are pricey to replace) These servers are
great headless firewall/light application servers. And the LOM port is
wonderful if you happen to have a digi or other serial port server. Parts
(other than disk) are more money than the system is worth usually...

The Mac G4: to many headaches IMO (I have 3 or four collecting dust now
400-1.3g). but parts are cheap as long as its no the PS, CPU or logic board
(most of the system). I've lost the GigE port on the logic board on 2 of my
systems, real pain.

Atlhon: cheap easy to get parts, upgrade to some degree... great if you
love to tinker.

And $320 seems very pricey to me for any of theses systems.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Christopher Dukes
In reply to this post by Joe McDonagh
On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 14:30 -0400, Joe McDonagh wrote:
> "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
> of 0 in my experience.
>
> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.

Not quite my experience.
In 2001 I worked at a place with a lot of used Sun hardware courtesy of
Fujitsu layoffs (Sparc 20s, Ultra 5s).
Entirely too many fried ethernet ports on the sparc 20s.
And it took too many iterations to find a sparc 20 that wouldn't crash
and burn while building OpenBSD from source.
A fidgety developer kicking an ultra 5 from a | orientation to a _
orientation would reliably destroy the power supply and harddrives.
On the bright side, I could repair the ultra 5s with power supply and
drives scavenged from eMachines with ALI motherboards with the wonderful
DMA that shoved garbage into memory for every OS we tried on them.

I thought the Micro Channel based RS/6Ks (Before the horrid SMP ones
designed by Group Bull) were a bit more bullet proof, with the only dead
hardware I'd experience being.
1) Rats pissing on the system boards, because the customer refused to
keep the covers on their systems in manufacturing.
2) A ladybird beetle invasion.
The RT PC was pretty reliable too.  I had one manufactured in 1987 that
was still trundling along in 2006 when I gave it away.

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Re: Architeture Choose

Bryan Irvine
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Christopher Dukes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 14:30 -0400, Joe McDonagh wrote:
>> "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
>> of 0 in my experience.
>>
>> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
>> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.
>
> Not quite my experience.
> In 2001 I worked at a place with a lot of used Sun hardware courtesy of
> Fujitsu layoffs (Sparc 20s, Ultra 5s).
> Entirely too many fried ethernet ports on the sparc 20s.
> And it took too many iterations to find a sparc 20 that wouldn't crash
> and burn while building OpenBSD from source.
> A fidgety developer kicking an ultra 5 from a | orientation to a _
> orientation would reliably destroy the power supply and harddrives.
> On the bright side, I could repair the ultra 5s with power supply and
> drives scavenged from eMachines with ALI motherboards with the wonderful
> DMA that shoved garbage into memory for every OS we tried on them.

I had a U10 with a Gig of ram that would crash during building. It
turned out to be a bad RAM module.

I'm with Henning though.  I've yet to see a dead Netra, stacks and
stacks of e220r/e420r's that haven't ever had any issues.  I used to
have a bunch of the e220r series that had like 4 years (maybe more)
worth of dmesg's in the output because they were never powered off,
only restarted for upgrades.

-B

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Re: Architeture Choose

Joe McDonagh
In reply to this post by Christopher Dukes
On 11/08/2010 12:44 PM, Christopher Dukes wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 14:30 -0400, Joe McDonagh wrote:
>    
>> "If your Sun fails"<-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
>> of 0 in my experience.
>>
>> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
>> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.
>>      
> Not quite my experience.
> In 2001 I worked at a place with a lot of used Sun hardware courtesy of
> Fujitsu layoffs (Sparc 20s, Ultra 5s).
> Entirely too many fried ethernet ports on the sparc 20s.
> And it took too many iterations to find a sparc 20 that wouldn't crash
> and burn while building OpenBSD from source.
> A fidgety developer kicking an ultra 5 from a | orientation to a _
> orientation would reliably destroy the power supply and harddrives.
> On the bright side, I could repair the ultra 5s with power supply and
> drives scavenged from eMachines with ALI motherboards with the wonderful
> DMA that shoved garbage into memory for every OS we tried on them.
>
> I thought the Micro Channel based RS/6Ks (Before the horrid SMP ones
> designed by Group Bull) were a bit more bullet proof, with the only dead
> hardware I'd experience being.
> 1) Rats pissing on the system boards, because the customer refused to
> keep the covers on their systems in manufacturing.
> 2) A ladybird beetle invasion.
> The RT PC was pretty reliable too.  I had one manufactured in 1987 that
> was still trundling along in 2006 when I gave it away.
>
>    
To be fair, the ultra 5 was sort of an attempt to cut corners and
produce 'cheaper' workstations. They also OEM'd their boards at that
point (my first Sun was an Ultra 5 board in some kind of no-name
chassis). The next iteration, the Blade 100, had a fair amount of
problems but generally, you get what you pay for. I'm talking more about
their servers in terms of reliability.

--
Joe McDonagh
AIM: YoosingYoonickz
IRC: joe-mac on freenode
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

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Re: Architeture Choose

Felipe Mesquita de Oliveira
Thanks everybodu for the tips...

For now, tending to i386/amd64... Found a Sun Fire V20z, 2xOpteron cheaper
than the V100...

Current candidate for my next server...

[]'s!

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Joe McDonagh <[hidden email]>wrote:

>  On 11/08/2010 12:44 PM, Christopher Dukes wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 14:30 -0400, Joe McDonagh wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "If your Sun fails"<-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
>>> of 0 in my experience.
>>>
>>> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
>>> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.
>>>
>>>
>> Not quite my experience.
>> In 2001 I worked at a place with a lot of used Sun hardware courtesy of
>> Fujitsu layoffs (Sparc 20s, Ultra 5s).
>> Entirely too many fried ethernet ports on the sparc 20s.
>> And it took too many iterations to find a sparc 20 that wouldn't crash
>> and burn while building OpenBSD from source.
>> A fidgety developer kicking an ultra 5 from a | orientation to a _
>> orientation would reliably destroy the power supply and harddrives.
>> On the bright side, I could repair the ultra 5s with power supply and
>> drives scavenged from eMachines with ALI motherboards with the wonderful
>> DMA that shoved garbage into memory for every OS we tried on them.
>>
>> I thought the Micro Channel based RS/6Ks (Before the horrid SMP ones
>> designed by Group Bull) were a bit more bullet proof, with the only dead
>> hardware I'd experience being.
>> 1) Rats pissing on the system boards, because the customer refused to
>> keep the covers on their systems in manufacturing.
>> 2) A ladybird beetle invasion.
>> The RT PC was pretty reliable too.  I had one manufactured in 1987 that
>> was still trundling along in 2006 when I gave it away.
>>
>>
>>
> To be fair, the ultra 5 was sort of an attempt to cut corners and produce
> 'cheaper' workstations. They also OEM'd their boards at that point (my first
> Sun was an Ultra 5 board in some kind of no-name chassis). The next
> iteration, the Blade 100, had a fair amount of problems but generally, you
> get what you pay for. I'm talking more about their servers in terms of
> reliability.
>
>
> --
> Joe McDonagh
> AIM: YoosingYoonickz
> IRC: joe-mac on freenode
> "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

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Re: Architeture Choose

SJP Lists
In reply to this post by Christopher Dukes
On 9 November 2010 04:44, Christopher Dukes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 14:30 -0400, Joe McDonagh wrote:
>> "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
>> of 0 in my experience.
>>
>> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
>> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.
>
> Not quite my experience.
> In 2001 I worked at a place with a lot of used Sun hardware courtesy of
> Fujitsu layoffs (Sparc 20s, Ultra 5s).
> Entirely too many fried ethernet ports on the sparc 20s.
> And it took too many iterations to find a sparc 20 that wouldn't crash
> and burn while building OpenBSD from source.
> A fidgety developer kicking an ultra 5 from a | orientation to a _
> orientation would reliably destroy the power supply and harddrives.
> On the bright side, I could repair the ultra 5s with power supply and
> drives scavenged from eMachines with ALI motherboards with the wonderful
> DMA that shoved garbage into memory for every OS we tried on them.
>
> I thought the Micro Channel based RS/6Ks (Before the horrid SMP ones
> designed by Group Bull) were a bit more bullet proof, with the only dead
> hardware I'd experience being.
> 1) Rats pissing on the system boards, because the customer refused to
> keep the covers on their systems in manufacturing.
> 2) A ladybird beetle invasion.
> The RT PC was pretty reliable too.  I had one manufactured in 1987 that
> was still trundling along in 2006 when I gave it away.

Maybe I got lucky, but all my Sun gear works nicely.  10x U10's/U5's,
a Blade 150, 2x Ultra 60's, 1x Ultra 80 and a Sun Fire V250.

This includes a U10 with an exploded yellow diode and the Sun Fire
V250 having been dropped (presumably in transit) causing the LOM card
to rip off the plastic from one end of it's mate connector in the
motherboard.  Not knowing that, attempting to power it up caused smoke
and a really bad feeling.  I had to do some MacGyver'ing to fix that,
but it's working fine.


Shane

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Re: Architeture Choose

Scott Stanley
I've heard a lot of praise for Sparc gear on this thread. Do many of
you have much experience with Sun's amd gear?

When using the "I'm only referring to Sparc" disclaimer, what's being
implied here (because I know nobody's saying that hardware fails
because of the CPU type, or am I wrong on that)?

Is it that Sparc boxes are for mission critical apps, and so "let's
use only the best hardware"?

Anyway, I was considering buying a Sun Fire V20z (amd) as a home
server, and would like to hear about any good or bad experiences with
Sun+AMD (googling yields only media hype and performance reviews, but
not real world stuff).

-Scott


On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:08 AM, SJP Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9 November 2010 04:44, Christopher Dukes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 14:30 -0400, Joe McDonagh wrote:
>>> "If your Sun fails" <-- that's a big IF. It's approaching a possibility
>>> of 0 in my experience.
>>>
>>> If performance isn't an issue and stability is your chief goal, none of
>>> this hardware is as stable as a Sun.
>>
>> Not quite my experience.
>> In 2001 I worked at a place with a lot of used Sun hardware courtesy of
>> Fujitsu layoffs (Sparc 20s, Ultra 5s).
>> Entirely too many fried ethernet ports on the sparc 20s.
>> And it took too many iterations to find a sparc 20 that wouldn't crash
>> and burn while building OpenBSD from source.
>> A fidgety developer kicking an ultra 5 from a | orientation to a _
>> orientation would reliably destroy the power supply and harddrives.
>> On the bright side, I could repair the ultra 5s with power supply and
>> drives scavenged from eMachines with ALI motherboards with the wonderful
>> DMA that shoved garbage into memory for every OS we tried on them.
>>
>> I thought the Micro Channel based RS/6Ks (Before the horrid SMP ones
>> designed by Group Bull) were a bit more bullet proof, with the only dead
>> hardware I'd experience being.
>> 1) Rats pissing on the system boards, because the customer refused to
>> keep the covers on their systems in manufacturing.
>> 2) A ladybird beetle invasion.
>> The RT PC was pretty reliable too.  I had one manufactured in 1987 that
>> was still trundling along in 2006 when I gave it away.
>
> Maybe I got lucky, but all my Sun gear works nicely.  10x U10's/U5's,
> a Blade 150, 2x Ultra 60's, 1x Ultra 80 and a Sun Fire V250.
>
> This includes a U10 with an exploded yellow diode and the Sun Fire
> V250 having been dropped (presumably in transit) causing the LOM card
> to rip off the plastic from one end of it's mate connector in the
> motherboard.  Not knowing that, attempting to power it up caused smoke
> and a really bad feeling.  I had to do some MacGyver'ing to fix that,
> but it's working fine.
>
>
> Shane

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